The End Time: The worst thing I've ever heard a husband say about his wife: plus, Mark Driscoll and the evangelical industrial complex

The End Time: The worst thing I've ever heard a husband say about his wife: plus, Mark Driscoll and the evangelical industrial complex

Column one: Israel, the Pilgrims and the Maccabees

Column one: Israel, the Pilgrims and the Maccabees

The power of sound frequencies

From this blog writer:
A note of caution for Christian believers. Do not try and replicate the experiments shown on the site below. These videos are posted only for education in the study of sounds and vibrations as applied in the New Age Movement, yoga and in Eastern occult mysticism and false religions to produce an alternate state of consciousness that will seduce anyone and ship wreck their faith.

If you want to learn more about guarding against the false teachings and practices that have invaded the church, please click Here  or below.

http://thelightseed.blogspot.com.br/2013/11/the-new-age-movement-beginning-in.html 

Jean-Louis


Reblogged from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fzo2-RZw2I&list=FL2MxQ90vibDclMvdPPAhqhg&index=2

Publicado em 23/08/2013

 

Frequência e vibração detêm um poder extremamente importante, ainda escondido para afectar as nossas vidas. nossa saúde, nossa sociedade e nosso mundo. A ciência da Cymatics (ou seja, o estudo do som visível e vibração) prova que frequência e vibração são as chaves mestras e fundação organizacional para a criação de toda a matéria e da vida neste planeta.

Quando as ondas sonoras se movem através de um meio físico (areia, água, ar, etc), a frequência das ondas tem um efeito directo sobre as estruturas que são criadas pelas ondas sonoras que passam por esse meio particular.

Vídeo editado e publicado pelo Paradigma da Matrix ( http://paradigmatrix.net ), Visite-nos!

The Dangers of the International House of Prayer (IHOP)

by John Park
The International House of Prayer (IHOP) was started on May 7, 1999 by Mike Bickle in Kansas City. [1]  It is well known for its 24/7 worship and prayer ministry.  Now it has grown substantially to include international ties, its very own seminary, and undergraduate program.  People from around the globe are flocking to IHOP, but do they actually know what they are getting into?

Cultic Origins and Goals

It is clear that almost all of the participants in IHOP do not have an understanding of what they are getting into.  Many of the participants, including many genuine Christians who are being deceived, believe it is a place to go pray and worship, while not knowing what the theological distinctives are that make IHOP unique.  The true origin started in 1982 after a man named Augustine approached Mike Bickle and said an audible voice told him to prophesy to his congregation.  Later that year, Mike Bickle claimed to hear an audible voice speaking to him while on a trip in Cairo, Egypt.  The voice told him, “I am inviting you to raise up a work that will touch the ends of the earth. I have invited many people to do this thing and many people have said yes, but very few have done my will.” [2] 
This is parallel to how many other cults of Christianity are born.  They follow the basic formula:
(Blank 1) said God told him/her a message, and he/she and starts the (Blank 2) church.
For Example:

• Joseph Smith said God told him a message, and he started the Mormon church.
• Ellen G. White said God told her a message, and she started the Seventh Day Adventist church.
• Mary Eddy Baker said God told her a message, and she started the Christian Scientist church.
• Sun Myung Moon said God told him a message, and he started the Unification church.
• Witness Lee/Watchman Nee said God told him a message, and he started the Local Church.
• Mike Bickle said God told him a message, and he started the International House of Prayer.

Not only is IHOP origin akin to many other aberrant groups, but their ultimate goals follow suit.  Mike Bickle has been quoted to say the church brings on the great tribulation:

We're not absent for the great tribulation, now listen carefully, the church causes the great tribulation. What I mean by that – it's the church, it's the praying church under Jesus' leadership that's loosing the judgment in the great tribulation in the way that Moses stretched forth his rod and prayed and loosed the judgments upon Pharaoh. The church in the tribulation is in the position that Moses was before Pharaoh but it won't be a Pharaoh and Egypt, it'll be the great end time Pharaoh called the antichrist and the book of Revelation is a book about the judgments of God on the antichrist loosed by the praying church. [9]

Even worse, Bickle proposes that an elite end-time church defeats God's enemies, and Jesus is "held in the heavens" until it happens.

Right now the prayer movement is growing fast….really fast! But when I say it's growing fast instead of one percent of the Body of Christ taking hold of it, maybe 10 percent. It's….you know it's like 10 times bigger than it was a generation ago, but beloved as fast as the prayer movement is growing, where people are getting hold of it, still for 90 percent of the Body of Christ it's not even on their mind. Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity. [9]

The Power of Emotionalism, Mysticism, and Gnosticism

The major draw of IHOP is experience.  People often come to me citing their experience and go back again and again to experience "God" and the "Spirit" - no different than an emotional high.  This is analogous to mysticism, which is defined as “the pursuit of deeper or higher subjective religious experience,” and “that spiritual reality is perceived apart from the human intellect and natural senses.” [13] They practice what is known as centering or contemplative prayer.  This is defined as “the practice of relaxing, emptying the mind, and letting one's self find the presence of God within.” [10] In fact, they had an article titled “Contemplative Prayer” on their website, but after much negative press they have taken it down. [13] However, the contents of the article have been preserved by a former IHOP staff member’s website and is available for all to see here: (http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/contemplative-prayer-continued/)

One of the highest criticisms would be IHOP’s insidious Gnosticism.  Gnosticism is derived from the greek word gnosis, meaning “knowledge.”  The hallmark of Gnosticism is the idea of having “hidden knowledge” of the spiritual realm that is unavailable to others.  This knowledge comes via prophecies, visions, and dreams that God specifically gives to a certain privileged group of people  - in this case IHOP.  In fact, IHOP has their own “prophecy rooms” where one can receive “prophecies,” and they used to have a practice of mailing out recorded tapes, of which I was asked by my friend’s mother to translate!

This is something the Apostle Paul discusses in Colossians 2:18. “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind” (NASB) [11].

Great experiences with our Lord are a gift from God, but one needs to exercise caution concerning the authority he/she gives personal experiences.  More often than not, the people who go to IHOP do not have a strong theological foundation and so they rely on their experiences to dictate what the Bible says and not the other way around.  Here are some words (from Dr. John MacArthur's sermon "Are Experiences a Valid Source of Truth?) of wisdom regarding experiences:

There is the ploy they use, "Well, we would expect you to be against it since you haven't had the experience." That is Gnosticism. That is believing that you have been elevated to a higher level of comprehension which the uninitiated have no understanding. Rodman Williams, who has written a number of books and who was once the president of a local Charismatic school, and I quote said, "Any vital information concerning the Gifts of the Spirit, the Pneumatic Charismata, predisposes a participation in them. Without such a participation, whatever is said about the Gifts may only result in confusion and error." If you haven't had it, you have no right to talk about it. One pastor said to me, "You talk exactly like one who never had the experience. You are speaking out of ignorance." I wonder if they feel that way talking about Heaven, Hell, murder, adultery, homosexuality, and numerous other subjects. Do we have to have that experience too? [5]

The IHOP Dilemma

When someone comes to you and say that God gave him a clear audible and/or visual revelation (dream, vision, prophecy, etc.), you are now in what I will call the IHOP Dilemma.
Due to the seriousness of disobeying genuine prophecy and the heinousness of proclaiming a false one, you are in an IHOP Dilemma when you are now forced to choose:
1) If this person is actually speaking truth from God.  If so, we are bound to listen or face incurring the steep penalty of disobeying God's very own commands via His prophet.
or
2) Whether or not a person is proclaiming falsehood in God's name and thus incurring the steep penalty of false prophesying and being a false prophet.

Unfortunately, this puts the rest of Christianity in a hard situation, because we now have to make the determination whether IHOP is full of false prophets or true prophets and to treat them as such.  We cannot merely remain neutral.  How can we be neutral on God's revelation or on such an egregious sin as false prophecy within the church?  It is like someone saying the pastor cheated on his wife or that he murdered someone and saying, "Hmm... let me think about that and get back to you later."  No, you're now in a tough situation and you now have to make a hard decision!
Unfortunately, many of those in IHOP have no idea what they are doing when they are supposedly "prophesying."  As I said before, they do not have a strong Biblical foundation and do not pause to think of the gravity of what they are actually proclaiming. [8]

A Sampling of the Prophecies

Lest you think the prophecies at IHOP are like ones in other mainstream charismatic churches or similar to prophecies noted men like John Piper, Vern Poythress, or Wayne Grudem believe, please read the following quotes other authors have noted:

1. On disc 7 of The Prophetic History, Bickle describes a visitation to the throne-room of God as he is told that God will be restoring the apostles to the church. Let me preface this by saying that before getting to this point in his message, Bickle described the experience as being on par with the Apostle Paul’s experience in the Third Heaven in 2 Cor. 12 as well as John’s visions.

They’ve been told by church leadership that it is up to them to “usher in” the Second Coming of Jesus. They’ve been encouraged to do away with discernment concerning mystical experiences. They’ve been told that they are “forerunners” of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist was. They’ve been told that the orthodox views of Christianity are weak and it’s up to them to restore the “true” message of the Gospel, using their new “powers from God” to start a revival that will win souls for the Kingdom." [6]

2. They could hear from God, and speak forth God's words, prophesying of great events soon to transpire on planet earth. And they could have flipped a coin as to whether what God allegedly told them would actually come true. Often they didn't come true. Some of the main prophets and/or leaders in the movement included Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, John Paul Jackson, Francis Frangipane, and others...However, he was quoted as saying that the general level of prophetic revelation in the movement's "prophets" had an accuracy level of about 65 percent. Some prophets were as low as 10 percent accurate, he said, with some of the "most mature" prophets having a rating "approaching 85 percent to 95 percent. " (Steven F Cannon, "Old Wine in Old Wineskins: A Look at Kansas City Fellowship," The Quarterly Journal 10, no. 4 (October-December 1990): 8. [7]

3. Bickle claims that a "voice" spoke to him in September 1982, directing him to a ministry to touch the ends of the earth. ( Albert James Dager, Vengeance is Ours. Redmond, Wash.: Sword Publishers, 1990, pg. 127.)  Bickle's account is as follows: "The Lord simply said, 'I will change the understanding and expression of Christianity in the earth in one generation.'" (Mike Bickle, Growing in the Prophetic. Lake Mary, Fla.: Creation House, 1996, pg. 30) [7]

4. Bickle speaking, “...but the fact is God showed me that it was truly a healing anointing. It was a tremendously, ah, dynamic dream for my own personal history and what I can understand for the life of this church. There’s a healing anointing He said would be second to no other movement. That’s what He told me directly, it would be second to no other movement in this whole generation, the healing anointing that will come upon this people. . .He (BJ) [Bob Jones] says ‘They took a banner and He (God) put a banner upon you last night and it spoke of the entire movement.’ Then he told me the dream I had and he said the Lord says there will be no movement that will be superior to the healing power that comes forth from this movement . He goes, ‘There will be nothing in the earth that this thing will be second to in the generation.’ I said, ‘God, this is incredible.’” (P.His 2, p. 15 - 17) [3]

5. “I (Mike Bickle) stood there and I was at the Lord’s left hand, and it was not a dream--this was as real as life here and like I said, I don’t know that realm... He (God) was speaking so sternly to me, He said, ‘If you are impatient...you will cause great turmoil and much trouble for many people.’ I was ashamed and I was broken with sorrow that He said that so harshly to me. And then what happened is that I start falling so rapidly--I mean like--S-H-O-O-O-M, it takes about five or six seconds, and fall down to my bed, right through the ceiling--I mean it was right through the walls and things--S-H-O-O-O-M, I hit my bed and it wasn’t like an instant I was there--I had knowledge of travel for five or six seconds. Have you had that?”

BJ: “Yes.”

MB: “And I was falling so rapidly and I was going like ‘A-H-H-H-H.’ I was coming right down through the black sky...And I come right through the ceiling and I hit my bed and I looked for like a half a second, I goes S-H-O-O-O-M right back up again, I go. . . right through the ceiling again! And I understood immediately the impatience was of setting in leadership premature without permission. He said...‘You cannot put leadership in that I do not say, because the leadership will divide and cause much division and many people will suffer great harm and I will hold you accountable for it. ‘...So what happens is this golden chariot, it appears--S-W-O-O-O-P-and it comes right there. . . and I under--I knew intuitively, instantly--it was an apostolic ministry, though it’s only the invitation. It was not a commission. The Lord was not calling me an apostle. He said He was thinking, ‘The days to come, if you’re faithful, you have an opportunity in the grace of God to fill an apostolic calling if you’re faithful to the full measure.’

 And I set in the chariot and I went shooting right into a blue sky and I knew as I was going up that it was revelation. He said, ‘I’m going to bring you to divine revelation in the days to come.’...There would be an end-time measure of apostolic ministry that would come out of the fruit of the intercession...so like it’s a number of years down the road. But the Lord said that I’m going to bring forth apostles—champions--if the people will live in intercession and ask for them to come...And so that was no small visitation in terms of the promise of what God said to this movement...And the Lord says, ‘Now you have the word in yourself now and you will not go running after other movements and other places because I have spoken to you face-to-face. 

‘...But I know that at that time I owned,..from the voice of God--face-to-face (but I never saw His face), but I mean standing next to Him, I owned the word myself and it was not just a matter of me believing Him. It was amazing how the revelation turned after that time.” (F88, p. 81 - 84) [3]

The Denigration of the Bible and Sola Scriptura

One of the biggest issues of this movement is their denial of one of the bedrock doctrines of the Reformation and evangelical Christianity: Sola Scriptura, or Scripture Alone.  Sola Scriptura is the notion that the Bible is the revealed will of God and all that is necessary for faith (all teachings are contained within the Bible) and practice (the things we need to govern our church and everyday life).  For an excellent explanation of this by Dr. Greg Bahnsen go here: (http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/bahnsen.html). Basically, God does not need to give us anymore revelation, and this was first used in the Reformation against the Roman Catholic church that said we needed their traditions and clergy, but now it is under attack by IHOP.  They might say they believe in it, but their actions outright deny it.

When people from IHOP make decisions, they do not use the Bible as the only revealed revelation from God because they supposedly still get direct revelations from Him.  They deny this very doctrine that defines the protestant and evangelical faith.  Sadly, this is rampant at IHOP.

Indexed as a Cult by Multiple Ministries

There are certainly many different theological distinctives in the Christian church, and many of us do differ.  However, we do not go so far as to label each other cults or heretics.  On the other hand, IHOP has been labeled dangerous, cultic, false, and heretical by many ministries, former members, apologetic groups, and Godly men.  In fact, other charismatic Christians have stood up to oppose them as well.  A small listing of these groups include:

• The Apologetics Index
• Apologetics Resource Center
• Critical Issues Commentary
• Pastor Ernie Gruen (a Charismatic preacher) who was written a manuscript entitled “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries).”  Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries) is Mike Bickles former ministry prior to founding IHOP.
• Pastor Bill Randles (a Pentecostal preacher) has written a book titled “Weighed and Found Wanting.”
• The Gospel Masquerade is a website created by a former staff member of IHOP.

All these resources are available in the references section. I especially recommend The Gospel Masquerade website, Pastor Gruen’s manuscript, and Pastor Randles’ book.

Conclusion

A quick review of the main offenses include:

1. Cultic origin, worship style, and goals
2. Emotionalism
3. Mysticism
4. Gnosticism
5. The IHOP dilemma
6. False Prophecies
7. Effective Denial of Sola Scriptura
8. Opposition by multiple Godly Christian Groups

Though it may seem like a place that is on fire and passionate for God, this is simply not the case.  Many of the people that do go there are sincere Christians, but they have been overcome by the lies and experiences they have there.  In short, the people I have communicated with ignore the things above and simply hold on to what they have experienced and point the finger at me saying, “you don’t know about us.”  Unfortunately I do know, and I hope this article persuades or helps you convince someone else who is going down a destructive path.  It breaks my heart to see so many young people fall victim to this place, and all the people who waste their lives and God given talents to expand IHOP’s kingdom and not God’s Kingdom.
References:

[1] http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000036203

[2] Randle, Bill. “Weighed and Found Wanting:  The Toronto Experience Examined in the Light of the Bible. Cambridge, UK. 1996. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/docs/WeighedAndFoundWanting.pdf

[3] Gruen, Ernie. Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries). Shawnee, KS. No date. http://www.deceptionbytes.com/AberrentDoctrinesKCF

[4] http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b56.html

[5] http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/CHAOS1.HTM

[6] http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2006/07/13/ihop-and-cultural-influences

[7] http://www.pfo.org/growingpains.htm

[8] http://thepredestinedblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/ihop-manifesto.html

[9] http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue107.htm

[10] http://carm.org/centering-prayer

[11] The Lockman Foundation. New American Standard Bible. La Habra, CA. 1995.

[12] MacArthur, John. The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: Colossians and Philemon.  Chicago, IL. 1992.

[13]  http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/contemplative-prayer-continued/

Israeli author: "I think this deal makes an Israeli strike inevitable."

Israeli author: "I think this deal makes an Israeli strike inevitable."

Is IHOP a cult? One intern’s story

Katie, an IHOP intern exhibiting strange manifistations

We’ve been reporting about and warning of the dangerous teaching of Mike Bickle’s spiritual influence over young vulnerable students, many of whom are willing to give up everything just to come live at his campus at IHOP (International House of Prayer) in Kansas City.
Two of our most requested resources:

• What about IHOP? (standupforthetruth.com)
• What About IHOP? (Part II) (standupforthetruth.com)

This is a video posted by IHOP of one of its interns, a young girl named Katie, sharing her testimony about how the Spirit of God manifested in her, and continues to manifest to this day. Watch and discern. What is she saying? What is her body language communicating? How would you test the spirits with someone like Katie and her friend?



In this video, these involuntary “Kriyas,” or jerking movements happen when the Kundalini is awakened. Those who practice Yoga or have spirit guides say they welcome these movements as a sign of greater spirituality. In many Christian Word of Faith teachings, this would be referred to falsely as the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.



Finally, the description for this video speaks for itself: “As a TM (transmeditation) practioner & a Siddha I can concur with what’s happenning here to some of these people. There bodies have experienced a release of kundalini shakti & are to an extent spontanously practcing Hatha Yoga.”



 PLEASE be careful about what you allow and believe. The spirit realm is very real, and it is infecting the Church and Body of Christ at an alarming rate in these last days.

Ariel’s Testimony

Now we have more testimony of the strange happenings. This personal story is very important. It was shared by a young woman named Ariel, who spent time as an intern at IHOP.  It is reprinted here in its entirety, along with some signs to look for if you are concerned that someone you love may be involved with a cult. (Need more background in IHOP? Check out the related articles after Ariel’s story):

It was the year I turned 23.I was bright-eyed, excited and full of hope & anticipation.Sure, I’d been through some rough stuff, but I knew that the Lordwas the keeper of my life and I was heading into a new season of trusting Him deeper.

I was moving to Kansas City! My long-awaited (14 years) dream of being in Kansas City to be a part of Mike Bickle’s ministry which had now branched into an International House of Prayer was finally materializing into reality. I had big hopes and dreams and wanted nothing but to serve my God with everything.

Since I was 12 years old, my family and I had driven the 3 hour trek to Kansas City for conferences at the church Mike Bickle pastored at the time (It is known by various names as they changed at different stages: Kansas City Fellowship, Metro Vineyard Fellowship & Metro Christian Fellowship). My spiritual roots had, in many ways, grown from the times that I spent in these gatherings and what I felt God imparted to my life while I was there. I had been around…marinating in the environment for about 14 years; so I knew a lot about the history that led up to what is now known as IHOP (the International House of Prayer). I remember one of the first times Mike shared his vision for starting IHOP. Many left Metro with Mike when he stepped down as senior pastor to help support it’s start-up.

 So fast forward…IHOP was still within its first 5 years of operation and I was captivated by what I saw and heard. If there was a “poster child” that endorsed IHOP and who was convinced it was the best thing going, that would have been me. I say all of this to lay a back drop for what follows.

 A long journey and a lot of waiting preceded the decision to move to Kansas City. My family and I unanimously agreed that after much prayer, it was the right timing so we sold or gave away half of what we owned, packed up the rest and moved to the Utopia of what we thought would be the greatest spiritual adventure of our lives. I had a background in the arts…music, dance, etc and couldn’t wait to get involved so I could really feel like I belonged there…not just a visitor hanging in the periphery and coming for conferences. I wanted to get “in”.

 When we arrived on moving day, the “community” we were hoping to be a part of and the support of those we knew from IHOP appeared to be quite lacking. We were told that to obtain moving help from IHOP, we had to hire them at a ridiculous hourly rate ($20/per person, per hour) which we could not afford. When the neighbors who lived next door found out that it was just us and we had NO help moving in, their family came over and helped us unpack our moving truck for approximately the next 3 hours–for no charge–just to be good neighbors. Oh…and did I mention they weren’t even believers? They had compassion on our predicament and carried boxes and hauled furniture without complaining once. They simply smiled and said “welcome to the neighborhood”.

 The un-relational climate we had seen hints of in the past became rapidly obvious upon our relocation to IHOP-KC. There was a lot of talk about “community” but everyone I met was so tunnel visioned on “always being in the prayer room” that they didn’t want to socialize or make time to build real relationships with people. There was a relational vacuum and the disconnect I felt upon my arrival was overwhelming. This was a significant concern of mine and my family but we rationalized it away with “oh, we just haven’t been here long enough. Eventually, we’ll feel more connected and involved and we’ll see the relational community that IHOP advertises here. Just give it time.”

Within a month, I joined the One Thing internship (which is an intensive 6-month long internship program for 18-25 year olds). I had really felt it was what I should do and had the support of my family that this was a great thing for me. They also felt it was a great way for me to connect to the ministry we had all moved here to be a part of. So our family’s income tax return went toward the steep $4,500 tuition fee for the program and I came on board in August. I was full of excitement and felt that things were finally coming together for me. At least that’s how it appeared.

This is where it all began for me….

A cult? Strong word you might say…and you are correct. It is not a word I use lightly or carelessly to label anything. But much prayer, time and years of research and personal experience have brought me to the conclusion that I can say confidently that the root system–or foundation–that IHOP is built on follows the basic premises and signs of a cult religious group. When I first left IHOP, I went through a severe culture shock that is hard to put into words. When I began studying the signs of cult fallout and the things that cult members go through after leaving a cult, my eyes began to open to what I had been a part of and recently come out of.

 Below I have listed some common signs of cult operation.  Below them I cite in underlined text short examples of my personal experiences as IHOP which illustrates these particular signs in IHOP’s day to day practice.  After 6 years of being out of IHOP I still hold to my position that it is a dangerous place for people’s hearts and I have seen much destruction of families, relationships and marriages of those who have been involved with this movement.

I appreciate your taking the time to read and prayerfully consider the research and personal testimony I have included below.

1. A destructive cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of its members’ behavior. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.
As an intern at IHOP, our day to day lives were closely monitored and dictated. I was not allowed to go anywhere or leave IHOP premises without express verbal permission from a community leader except on our one day off. Our schedules started early in the morning with hours in the prayer room, then classes, then back to the prayer room. Our nights often ran late with required attendance at EGS (Encounter God Services) or any other special event Mike spoke at that we were required to attend. Sometimes we had to attend worship sets that ended at 10 pm or midnight. Sleep was minimal and was often un-restful when I did get it. Sleep deprivation is a commonly used tactic in many cult groups to weaken the mind and make a person more susceptible to the embracing of the doctrines taught by that cult. There are many biological and psychological effects of sleep deprivation on the mind.

2. A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard. Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully follow cult rules. They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, honorable groups teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.

Anyone who rebelled against IHOP’s rules went through a strict disciplinarian process. At its most minimal level of discipline, for an intern, this meant the loss of having a day off and having to do manual labor. Everyone was kept on a short leash. We also had weekly groups as interns that we were required to participate in where everyone was“interrogated” and pressured to open up and share their personal struggles, etc and answer personal questions about their lives, struggles, thoughts, fears, and walks with G-d. It often felt like going to some kind of confession (as in Catholocism) and some interns out and out refused to be so vulnerable and disclosing in front of people they did not know. We were all given journals and told that we had mandatory writing assignments to complete. 

We were to record details of our IHOP prayer room times, things God spoke to us, dreams, visions, or whatever else that happened in us spiritually and then had to turn in our journals weekly to have an internship leader review/read them. In the last month or so I was at IHOP I paid particularly close attention to the fact that internship leaders ironically prayed things over me in prayer times or at the altar in the prayer room that related directly to things I had put in my journals. So what often might have seemed prophetic was the result of the information about me they already had access to.

3. A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising.Altruistic movements, established religions, and other honorable groups also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group’s main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult’s real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.

There were always an underlying pressure to bring people into IHOP. We were encouraged to invite others and get them to join what we were doing. IHOP campaigns big time to recruit new interns. At every conference, advertising and marketing videos are used to this day to promote the internships. They are played on large TV screens like presidential campaigns and are just part of the propaganda used to “sell” young people on this new version of what walking with God is supposed to look like.

Each intern paid $4,500 to attend a 6 month internship. This covered some books/teaching material we were given as well as food, lodging etc. Check this out though: Every intern lived in the Hernhutt apartments (located next door) which IHOP owned anyway so the only expense was utilities and general upkeep. There was no rent. Plus when there was a mandatory fasting day, weekend, week, etc. no meals were served. So those who didn’t choose to fast had to go out and buy food and no interns were not allowed to have jobs so this got to be a big expense since there wasn’t extra money to live on.

I lived in a 2-bedroom apartment. It housed 6 girls from the ages of 20-23. 4 of us shared one room and 2 shared another. The prayer room costs nothing to attend and is free and open to the public. So hmmm….$4,500 for meals, my electric bill and some IHOP books. I currently live in my own apartment, pay all of my own bills including rent, food, gasoline, renter’s insurance, credit card bills, student loans, electric, cell phone, etc etc and ALL of that costs me approximately $1,500 a month. So basic math says that someone was getting a big paycheck because my expenses would have never cost that in an internship program where we were given so little.

4. A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life’s problems or the world’s ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to mind control to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

In the time I was there Mike often used “them and us” types of statements when referring to “the church” or those outside of IHOP. We were given a sense of being on the “cutting edge” because we were ahead of the church and were doing something new & innovative that was going to sweep the world. It all sounded good so everyone wanted to be in on it as a “forerunner” and liked the label of being on the front lines. So no one dared questioned it.

5. A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader’s wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

Our family became friends with a Jewish couple who were in KC for a conference. They were part of an orthodox Jewish congregation in Israel and were missionaries in the US. They had some grave concerns and red flags (regarding IHOP’s theology, the model that is used with everything IHOP related, etc) that they attempted to meet with Mike and discuss. After being brushed off by Mike multiple times in his refusal to meet with him…even though they were Jewish leaders from Israel and Mike knew of them, he finally told these friends of ours that “This is how we do things here. This is just how IHOP is. It’s not for everyone.” If there was something you didn’t like or didn’t agree with, you were basically told “IHOP wasn’t for everyone so if you couldn’t handle it, maybe you shouldn’t be here.” There was no actual accountability for anything deemed wrong/un-Biblical. We were told that IHOP has its own “culture” and you must assimilate into that culture and language to really understand it. If you had a problem with something, you were told that you just had not been around long enough to understand how they did things OR that you just weren’t a good fit. These were the answers I was given when I met with internship leaders right before leaving. There was never actual admittance of wrong doing or hurting anyone who was caught in the crossfire.

6. A destructive cult’s leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them from impending doom.

Every intern was required to listen to the 12 hours of IHOP’s recorded history on CD footage. Much of this content was heavily edited before its publication. These tapes told of “prophetic words” and signs that were given to some of Mike’s mentors (Bob Jones, Paul Cain, etc)—who were all naming him as the leader of the next “big thing” God was doing. Over and over and over again I’ve heard it said (both directly by Mike as well as from others) that he (Mike) would be the leader of a movement that “changed the nature and expression of Christianity in the earth”. Every time, all recognition points to Mike. His “mission” to transform the church and capture the hearts of America’s youth has been his declared goal since the early 1980’s. One of the major dangers is that these grandious sounding claims and “prophetic” words are laden with flattery, narcissism, elitism and are a perfect guise under which anything Mike introduces through IHOP can fall under the heading of being a “new thing” God is doing.

This elitist teaching puts Mike on a pedestal and he has a Messianic-like devoted following of people who would do anything if he told them to without a moment of questioning or hesitation. From my observations and experiences on staff, IHOP members do not think for themselves or question Mike’s interpretation of scripture or the slant in the way he teaches it. At any conference, one will easily observe that if Mike recommends a book or promotes a teaching, a t-shirt or a speaker, at the next break, ALL of that item will be sold out in their bookstore. When I was on staff, I heard people continually sing Mike’s praises around the clock and quote more of what Mike says or thinks or teaches than actual scripture.

Mike has an alluring charisma and many seem to be instantly drawn to his convincing appearance of direction and purpose. He teaches with passion and emotion rather than truth and it’s that charisma that draws and hooks people causing many to blindly follow (and defend) his message.

I believe that the IHOP lifestyle by and large sets people up for disillusionment through the false hope that its deception provides. It is a pseudo, manufactured reality where people are told “you can live in Nirvana and enjoy the ‘high’ of being in God’s presence 24/7 and that can be ALL that you live for” so people sell all that they have, buy into a dream and move across the country to be a part of a ministry that makes captivating claims…and then their world often crumble to ashes when things aren’t as they seem once they arrive.

Mike’s primary target and focus is on the young people. His appeals from the pulpit and his well-polished speeches aim at capturing the hearts of America’s youth. Children and youth are not told or encouraged to respect or honor the parents G-d gave them. Instead, wedges are driven between families and a seed of pride, rebellion and elitism gets planted into the hearts of youth when they are told things like the following…
This is a very close paraphrase of what I’ve heard many, many times at One Thing, IHOP conferences and in teachings by leaders:

“YOU are called to be on the cutting edge. Come here and join a community of other people who are like you, called to what you’re called to. We understand you. You’ve been mis-understood in the church. You’ve had your wings clipped, your gifts misunderstood. Here you can fulfill your forerunner calling that your family just hasn’t understood about you. You might feel like you don’t fit back home, you’re on the outside, no one understands the fire in you. Well we get it. Youare the leaders that G-d is raising up in these end times and you will be kings and queens on the earth—reigning with Him. You were made for this place. IHOP is an incubator for people like you.”

Narcissistic speeches like this instill a sense of pride, arrogance and elitism in the hearts of youth who hear it and it feeds their need for validation and identity. They run to IHOP, leave their families, join internships…hoping that what they’ve heard is true. They go to IHOP looking for identity…instead of finding it in Jesus.

Once outside of the IHOP environment, they are terrified and overwhelmed by the “real” world and don’t know how to function in it when they’ve been in an intensive internship environment. There is a degree of re-acclimating to normal life that feels like an IHOP detox afterward. It’s a severe emotional drop because the hyped up services and conferences that were your manna are now gone and when there is no prayer room, your life in God feels empty and lifeless. Many simply don’t know how to engage with God in a real day-to-day basis once they’ve left. I experienced this and heard the exact same thing from a handful of my friends after they left IHOP and the internship. At that point when disillusionment sets in, I know many interns that walked away from God completely upon leaving the internship and went back into lifestyles worse than the ones they left when they came to IHOP originally.

7. A destructive cult’s leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself.Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

I believe my statements above illustrate this so I won’t be redundant.
8. A destructive cult’s leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult. The leader then takes control over followers’ possessions, money, time, and lives.

Youth are pumped up at conferences and then go home to tell their parents they are moving to Kansas City to join IHOP, be part of an internship, etc. At the time, sadly, they don’t realize how much more they are giving up and leaving behind than just their families. I was hurled into a system that took control of my time, when I ate, slept, had time alone, etc. Picking up the pieces of my heart and rebuilding a Biblical view of God after getting outside of IHOP was quite a long process. I hope that by sharing all of this, I am able to spare others the heartache of what I went through.

You may or may not have been in a cult-like environment but here are some potential signs to watch for in safe/unsafe group leaders.
“I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. Therefore be as wise and cunning as snakes but innocent as doves.” –Matthew 10:16
**********
Research by Rick Ross,Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader. 
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.
9. The group/leader is always right.10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Please don’t just take my word for it. Start doing your own research. Ask the Father to lead you as you pursue what is TRUTH. Don’t just stop at the facts–look deeper. Do Google searches on cults and ask the Lord to unveil deceptions.
Blessings to you on your journey of walking with Him.

Related articles

• What Mike Bickle IHOP Believes (raymondjclements.wordpress.com)
• What’s the Difference Between a Religion and a Cult? (mindi.authormeanders.com)
• Manifesting: Which spirit? (standupforthetruth.com
• What about IHOP? (standupforthetruth.com)
• What About IHOP? (Part II) (standupforthetruth.com)
• Mike Bickle of IHOP-KC instructs followers on contemplative prayer(sheepyweepy.wordpress.com)
• International House of Prayer leaders infested with contemplative prayer(christianresearchnetwork.com)
• What is the Latter Rain movement? (standupforthetruth.com)
• Francis Chan to speak at IHOP-KC Onething Conference (kimolsen.wordpress.com)
• IHOP Openly Promotes Contemplative Prayer/Visualization (vrscuteri.com)

Israel vows ‘whatever is necessary’ to stop Iran

Israel vows ‘whatever is necessary’ to stop Iran

Krauthammer: A 'sucker's deal' for America | savannahnow.com

Krauthammer: A 'sucker's deal' for America | savannahnow.com

Senior General: US in Greatest Danger Since 1930s

Senior analyst Gen. McInerney warns that US is in comparable danger to pre-WWII period, specifically from Russian and Iranian hegemonies.

By Ari Yashar& Orli Harari

First Publish: 11/22/2013, 12:55 PM

General Thomas McInerney

Screenshot

Senior military analyst Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney spoke to Arutz Sheva on Tuesday, warning that rising Russian and Iranian influence, coupled with America's waning Middle East presence, has put the US in the most dangerous situation it has been in since the 1930s just prior to World War II.

McInerney addressed the global security situation following the "EMPact" conference in Washington DC, in which analysts warned that the US is unprepared for an Iranian "Electromagnetic Pulse" attack.

See more

Tags: US, Iran Nuclear Program, security situation, World War Two, Thomas McInerney

Storing Up For Others - Gracethrufaith

Storing Up For Others - Gracethrufaith

Tudo muda quando você pertence a Deus.

Escrito por Pastor  Roberto Naves Amorim

BOM DIA!

Tudo muda quando você pertence a Deus.

O apóstolo João afirmou em 1 João 4.6: “Nós somos de Deus; aquele que conhece a Deus nos ouve; aquele que não é da parte de Deus não nos ouve. Nisto reconhecemos o espírito da verdade e o espírito do erro.”

Como faz bem ouvir: “nós somos de Deus.” Quando alguém sabe que pertence a Deus, é dEle e vive com Ele num laço de intimidade, como tudo isso faz bem a alma.

Faz bem porque Deus não está distante e indisponível; faz bem porque Deus não é um objeto da religião e ninguém precisa trazê-lo e apresentá-lo; faz bem porque Deus é uma pessoa que se abre para relacionar com a vida, com o cotidiano, com os problemas e com as alegrias.

Aquele que é de Deus tem uma característica básica: ele ouve a verdade, ele quer saber sobre os ensinos de Deus para viver, compartilhar e agir. O que pertence a Deus clama por sua voz. Ouvir a doce voz de Deus é algo indizível!

Hoje você pode decidir ouvir a voz de Deus e pertencer a Ele. Imagine como sua vida mudará? Pense nas possibilidades concretas de transformação dentro de si mesmo. Que escolha tremenda!

Convido você a abraçar o “espírito da verdade” e abandonar o “espírito do erro”. Ranque tudo aquilo que lhe prende e lhe confunde; que tanto enche você mais de si mesmo, menos de Deus e longe das pessoas.

Pertença a Deus!

Tenha um bom dia!

Ps - Esse "Bom dia" foi bom para você? Compartilhe com outros! Faça parte da "corrente do bem".

Only Lieberman can put the brakes on Kerry's foolishness

Only Lieberman can put the brakes on Kerry's foolishness

Planning To Go Or Planning To Stay?

Reblogged from gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher  

 

Friday, November 15th, 2013

 

Q.  My wife of almost 2 years now has told me that she is ready to go (in the Rapture) at any time just as I am.  We agree about most spiritual matters.  However, she is constantly planning for the future here, while I am constantly looking up as if the rapture could occur any day now.  It’s as if she is oblivious to the events that are taking place around the world.

Because I study end times prophecy a lot, she says that I am obsessed with all of this.  She says that if you are ready, then nothing else matters.  I feel as if she thinks I am a nut for wishing the Lord would return right now.  Do you have any words of encouragement that I could say to her in a loving way or should I just continue to pray for her?


A. Because our minds naturally work in a linear fashion, many people find it hard to grasp the idea that some day without warning everything will suddenly change forever. But the Bible says this life is temporary and it’s the next one that’s permanent.  In 2 Cor. 4:18 Paul admonished us to fix our eyes not on what is seen but on what is unseen.  For what is seen is temporary but what is unseen is eternal.  In Matt. 6:19-21 Jesus cautioned us about storing up treasure on Earth and said we should focus instead on storing up treasure in Heaven, and in Luke 12:16-21 He told a parable that symbolized the folly of being obsessed with worldly things.

In other words, although we’re in this world we’re not supposed to be concerned about the things of this world. And even if we weren’t nearing the End of the Age and could expect to live a full life time,  what’s a 70-80 year life here compared to eternity?  How does it make sense to be so focused on getting all this life has to offer without giving much more than a random thought to preparing for the next one?

To help us through our time here the Lord promised that if we would focus on seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness, He would take care of all of our needs here. (Matt. 6:25-34) But this is the exact opposite of how most believers are taught to live. We’ve been taught to focus on getting the things of this world and to leave the next one to Him. It’s one of the great failures of organized religion.

You appear to have come around to accepting the Lord’s priorities. Your wife needs some time to catch up.  Be patient as you go over these verses with her and continue to pray.

Israel accuses US of deceit on nuclear deal with Iran. Geneva signing drags out as Iran ups its price

DEBKAfile Special Report November 9, 2013, 12:38 PM (IDT)

Tags:  Iran nuclear,  Geneva,  Barack Obama,  Binyamin Netanyahu,  John Kerry,  France,  

Barack Obama to NBC: "Modest" sanctions relief

The interim nuclear accord negotiated directly between Washington and Tehran was already secretly in the bag before the two-day talks between Iran and the Six World powers took place in Geneva Thursday and Friday. The plan was for a ceremonial signing to take place Friday, Nov. 8, after US Secretary of State John Kerry flew in from Jerusalem and the Iranian Foreign Minister confirmed “the general outline of an agreement.”Half a dozen foreign ministers from across the globe flew into Geneva to add their signatures to the interim accord. But the signing did not take place and the event dragged on into Saturday, Nov. 9. See more 

Related stories: http://www.debka.com/article/23428/Geneva-fallout

Why were the Bereans noble? First, they received the word with eagerness

Reblogged from the-end-time.blogspot.com

Paul and Silas in Berea. (Acts 17:10-12)
"The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men."

I am currently in a sad mood because friends are following the false teachings of a growing Charismatic church in my area. I had a conversation with someone, who answered with emotional arguments and completely rejected all scripture I'd offered. Though I'd tried hard in showing the biblical stance through scripture, I've been thinking long and hard about why and how a professed Christian can reject the bible as authoritative and refuse to submit to its teachings.
The classic reference as to the nobility of those who search the scriptures is well-known. The Bereans relied on scripture to check what Paul was saying, as quoted above. I usually focus on the latter part of the key verse, "searched the scriptures daily". But today I'd like to focus on the former part, "received the word with all eagerness."
We think, 'of course they received the word with eagerness! Who wouldn't want to check what you are learning against the word?' But it goes a bit deeper than that. Paul and Silas ministered in Berea in about 54 AD. We have the advantage of 2000 years of history, culture, and theology and a completed canon of a revealed word of God on which to stand while making that statement. The Jews & Greeks in Berea hadn't. They had about 20 years.
First, many were Jews, and Paul was teaching in the synagogue. Jews had a nearly two thousand year tradition of intimacy with God since Abraham. Judaism was the world's only monotheistic religion. The Jewish temple, rituals, holidays and laws were literally embedded in the Jews via DNA and having become a peculiar race of people.

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." (Deuteronomy 14:2)
Second, Paul and Silas were teaching the opposite of everything every Jew had ever learned. They had to hear hard sayings. They heard Paul preach that the Messiah had come, and His peculiar people had rejected Him. They listened to teaching that His salvific gaze was no longer on the Jews but on the pagans until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled. That He died and rose again- without having established the promised kingdom (yet). That pagans (Greeks) were now included in the bosom of the Lord as peculiar people- people a Jew had been taught to revile. That the Messiah had fulfilled all the law and there no longer needed to be feasts and Jewish holy days. That salvation only required belief in these hard sayings- faith in the dead and resurrected Jesus. And more.
How would you react if you heard hard sayings? Many who had just seen Jesus feed the five thousand rejected Him when they heard him speak hard things. And those were pagans with no history of a relationship with God. (John 6:53-56). I know that I get irritated when people email me to say that a certain interpretation I'd labored over was wrong. Or a pet teacher or preacher is no good. But I look into these things as a dutiful Christian to confirm what I am hearing, or to confidently reject it on the basis of revealed truth.

But the Bereans "received the word with all eagerness". They listened, and then they checked. But the first part is that they listened and received the word. Their love for the Holy God of Israel was above any personal interpretation they held. It was higher than any value they laid upon the word. They wanted to know the truth, and it was obvious that these men were of God. Something was happening in the religious arena, exciting, troublesome, wondrous.
The only way they could begin to examine the scriptures was to compare what Paul and Silas were saying against it. So they listened.
Many Charismatics do not love Jesus more than their own experience. They do not love the word more than their own pet theory. They do not examine the scriptures to see if it is so. They reject the best this world has to offer, the sterling and true word of God.

Do they get angry,
or do they receive with eagerness?

If you are engaged in a discussion with someone who answers emotionally and refuses to listen to the scriptures you are sharing, they are not a Berean. They do not receive the word with all eagerness. And as long as they do not listen to hard sayings and verses from the bible, they can't see if it is true. WHich is exactly satan's point.
Then they can and do go on their way, experiencing and encountering and lifting 'holy hands' and singing and falling down in tongues and having a happy 'worship time' until the Lord returns and says "I never knew you."
Third, what was the result of the Bereans receiving the word with eagerness, and then searching to see if it was so? Belief. It stands to reason that the opposite will be true also. Refusing to listen and search and confirm results in unbelief.
You see, He has revealed Himself in the word. Paul saw Him personally, all the apostles did. But we in the new millennium cannot see him, "for we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7)
Do we rely on tongues and miracles and signs? No. We rely on the word.
"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:18)
And why do we rely on the word and not on signs and sight and earthly works as 'manifestations of the Spirit?'
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Mark 3:31)
The Bereans knew that when God speaks, you listen, and do so eagerly.
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." (Hebrews 1:1-2)
God spoke to us! He speaks! The holy God who dwells in heaven, parted the veil, and took over a thousand years to put together a holy book by His Spirit for our benefit. Who are we to ignore it? Who are we to place a higher value on our supposed experience than His Son, the Word?
To conclude, remember that the verse regarding the noble Bereans has two parts, receiving the word eagerly and checking for themselves to see if what they hear is true. A sign you are dealing with someone who is seriously adrift is if that person refuses to address the scriptures you share. A sign you are dealing with someone who loves the Lord, even if they are getting irritated, is if they hang in there and stick to a scriptural talk.

I said to the person I was speaking with about Charismatic manifestations, that I cannot do any better than offer the word of God. There is nothing higher, more true, or more absolute to place on the table as common ground in any discussion. All else is just opinion. And we know what Proverbs 18:2 says about opinions,

"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion."